Curse

Del · Jan 27, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

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Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Way to utterly destroy rangers

seriously? this again? did you even read the thread before bringing this point up again?

check this shit out.

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Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

LOL
This doesn't affect apply rangers. no big deal. ranger's role isn't to do big damage, it's to spread conditions and disrupt. Who cares about some baed near useless skills being nerfed? they didn't even get the real issue with ranger which was the fact that expertise lets them spam lame skills and with with their gay ass lamer sway builds.

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Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Rangers dealing high amounts of damage in a matter of 2 seconds has been a problem from Proph. This is actually a step up for Anet.

The only skillful rangers were those who had next to no damage output but could still pressure and shutdown like a pimp. Basically, the physical equivalent a dom mes.

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Originally Posted by Windf0rce

lol, stop crying now, Ranger is still one of the most powerful PvP professions even after those nerfs that only affect stupid gimmick spike builds (ultra defense ultra offense Para / Ranger teams zzzz). When will people realise that D-Shotting a WoH hurts a team way more than dealing big damage?

THE R/Mo 'Apply' template isn't being hit and that's all that matters... it's a very good update.

Arkantos · Jan 27, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

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Originally Posted by Abedeus

Fixed for ya.

Well, that's true. But when ANet attempts to balance PvE, they don't balance skills around AI teams (unless they're balancing a skill solely for a H/H team).

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While I do not think PvE (or Guild Wars in general) should prioritize Hero and Henchmen synergy with skills, it really ought to be considered. While the game is not dead, it is still dying. As time goes on, players will have more a more difficult time finding full teams of players, and every skill that the Hero and Henchmen react horribly too detracts from the experience when in a party with them. ArenaNet needs to sell Guild Wars 2, and is likely going to be banking on an influx of new players into Guild Wars 1 at GW2's release. A lot of dissatisfied players is both degenerative to the game, as well as future releases due to the loss of revenue. One skill (ie Soldier's Fury) is not going to bring about a Cataclysm, but there is a while before Guild Wars 2 will come around, and many updates will occur in that period. This is a poor trend to begin at this stage of the game's life.

Frenzy is certainly powerful, and while it is almost always on my Warrior's bar for PvP, the fact is that PvE Monsters (particularly in HM) do a lot more damage than opposing players in PvP. If you are running reliable tanks and don't have to worry about stray damage, that's fine, but for a "balanced" team setup it's suicide in many HM areas. It also locks the player into the Warrior secondary, which isn't always ideal. I know you're teasing though

It's true that it's going to continue to be more difficult to find full human teams, but giving this skill cracked armor doesn't kill it, nor does it kill paragons in h/h teams. Take a look at almost every single IAS in the game. The majority have drawbacks. Now take a look at Soldier's Fury. You cast it once and you'll have it on you indefinitely. The only 'drawback' is that you need to be under a chant or shout, which is hardly a drawback for a paragon. It should have had cracked armor from the beginning.

Yes, HM monsters deal much more damage than players in PvP. So? You don't need a tank to be able to run frenzy on a paragon. You don't even need to be in a full human team to do it. All you need is to be somewhat smart, have a hero with protective spirit, and possibly have a cancel stance. I run it all the time in HM areas when I'm using H/H, I never have serious problems. And yes, it does make you use /W, but honestly what paragon in PvE isn't running SY these days (other than the ones screwing around and running a random subpar build)?

Life Bringing · Jan 27, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

Well, that's true. But when ANet attempts to balance PvE, they don't balance skills around AI teams (unless they're balancing a skill solely for a H/H team).

It's true that it's going to continue to be more difficult to find full human teams, but giving this skill cracked armor doesn't kill it, nor does it kill paragons in h/h teams. Take a look at almost every single IAS in the game. The majority have drawbacks. Now take a look at Soldier's Fury. You cast it once and you'll have it on you indefinitely. The only 'drawback' is that you need to be under a chant or shout, which is hardly a drawback for a paragon. It should have had cracked armor from the beginning.

Yes, HM monsters deal much more damage than players in PvP. So? You don't need a tank to be able to run frenzy on a paragon. You don't even need to be in a full human team to do it. All you need is to be somewhat smart, have a hero with protective spirit, and possibly have a cancel stance. I run it all the time in HM areas when I'm using H/H, I never have serious problems. And yes, it does make you use /W, but honestly what paragon in PvE isn't running SY these days (other than the ones screwing around and running a random subpar build)?

Really hope you have SoA on your heroes. With frenzy+SY, you're going to be a pretty hawt target.

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 27, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

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Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

seriously? this again? did you even read the thread before bringing this point up again?

check this shit out.

I think the majority of people that are complaining are complaining from a PvE perspective.

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Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Really hope you have SoA on your heroes. With frenzy+SY, you're going to be a pretty hawt target.

Just bring flurry and cancel it. Cancel stances work in PvE too y'know.

That and don't go mashing Frenzy when you run up to that group of Ruby Djinn

moriz · Jan 27, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

i'd rather anet use "disables all bow attack skills for .5 seconds" instead of adding that aftercast. aftercast makes the character into a sitting duck, while the skill disable will at least allow the character to move.

and cripshot needs a 1s cooldown; though the double speed arrow effect sounds pretty cool. eat my longbow range crip biatch!

jazilla · Jan 27, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I guess Focused Anger FTW now. Spam stuff to help out team mates. There simply is no room for me to play my PvE para anymore and since it's the lamest profession in 4v4 that leaves room for me to roll one in 8v8 on my PvP slot?

Karate Jesus · Jan 27, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

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Originally Posted by lemming

Being able to chain three attack skills on a spike is what makes Glass Arrows rangers dangerous, not the +18 damage on Power Shot.

Chaining three attack skills is not the only thing that made them dangerous. Glass Arrows actually added damage and was often combined with other skills (Brutal Weapon) to do even more damage in three hits.

Quick Shot would have never been used for that because it's not worth giving up the elite spot. It's definitely not worth it considering you could be spreading conditions or doing more damage team wide.

*lemming* · Jan 27, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Chaining three attack skills is not the only thing that made them dangerous. Glass Arrows actually added damage and was often combined with other skills (Brutal Weapon) to do even more damage in three hits.

Quick Shot would have never been used for that because it's not worth giving up the elite spot. It's definitely not worth it considering you could be spreading conditions or doing more damage team wide.

In the absence of any other fast-activating alternatives, people would run Quick Shot. It's not that complicated.

Karate Jesus · Jan 27, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

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Originally Posted by lemming

In the absence of any other fast-activating alternatives, people would run Quick Shot. It's not that complicated.

But why? If there are no other skills adding additional damage, then what's the point? I highly doubt people would have run Conjure+QS. That would have been terrible.

Nimble Night · Jan 27, 2010, 11:34 PM // 23:34

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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

But why? If there are no other skills adding additional damage, then what's the point? I highly doubt people would have run Conjure+QS. That would have been terrible.

I do remember aaaages ago a fairly popular ranger spike that made use of kindle + conjure + QS. Even so, I doubt a spike with QS now would be all that fantastic.

*lemming* · Jan 27, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

But why? If there are no other skills adding additional damage, then what's the point? I highly doubt people would have run Conjure+QS. That would have been terrible.

Do you really think that a halfassed job of nerfing would be a good policy?

BTW, QS + Expert's Focus still does up to 200 damage for one ranger. It's certainly a significant downgrade from the current bar, but why should damage rangers be kept viable?

Martin Alvito · Jan 27, 2010, 11:53 PM // 23:53

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Originally Posted by lemming

BTW, QS + Expert's Focus still does up to 200 damage for one ranger. It's certainly a significant downgrade from the current bar, but why should damage rangers be kept viable?

They shouldn't. Balance requires that the Ranger make some tradeoff for the ability to interrupt and deal damage at range. The designed tradeoff obviously was that a Ranger could deal damage over time but, unlike a Warrior, could not deal large packets of damage right now. The balance team's repeated actions against Ranger spike tend to confirm this.

Eventually ANet forgot about history and started creating abusable Ranger direct damage mechanics again during the NF-EotN period when damage was seriously OP (necessitating similarly OP team-wide defensive skills).

I'm sure you already know that, but the point does need to be made explicitly.

Arkantos · Jan 28, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

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Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Really hope you have SoA on your heroes. With frenzy+SY, you're going to be a pretty hawt target.

You can throw PS/SoA on pretty much any caster bar.

Sifow Chan · Jan 28, 2010, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.
Why do you hate the profession so much?
You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck.

Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.

IrishX · Jan 28, 2010, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.
Why do you hate the profession so much?
You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck.

Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.

Maybe if they hadn't created an utterly retarded, unbalance-able class they would not have to.

Nimble Night · Jan 28, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

Anet you're all morons. Nerfing the only GOOD Elite Para's have in PvP.

The skill was overpowered and so it was nerfed. I don't see what the problem is here? The paragon class is still completely viable in PvP, with a large selection of support elites. Now that there isn't a single dominant elite the bars that see play will be more diverse, which is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

You nerf and nerf them and never give them a buff.
Seriously you suck.

The paragon class defiantly does not need a buff. Besides, do you not remember what happened last time Anet decided to buff stuff? Check the December 2008 update notes if you forgot.

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Originally Posted by Sifow Chan

Everyone can say what they want about me, but it's seriously sickening to see how they just keep making Paragons worse and worse.

If they were not so horribly overpowered when they were implemented, they wouldn't of had to be nerfed so much. This whole crying every time anything gets nerfed attitude is getting old.

pinkeyflower · Jan 28, 2010, 10:57 AM // 10:57

While I like most of the proposed changes I'm still unsure about the aftercast added to Ride the Lightning (now I can't farm fame in HA anymore). The exhaustion was more than enough as a deterrent to melee classes and I've found that they're not used all that much anyway. A bit off-topic but instead of nerfing Quick Shot try addressing the bot problem.

Redvex · Jan 28, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

They shouldn't. Balance requires that the Ranger make some tradeoff for the ability to interrupt and deal damage at range. The designed tradeoff obviously was that a Ranger could deal damage over time but, unlike a Warrior, could not deal large packets of damage right now. The balance team's repeated actions against Ranger spike tend to confirm this.

Eventually ANet forgot about history and started creating abusable Ranger direct damage mechanics again during the NF-EotN period when damage was seriously OP (necessitating similarly OP team-wide defensive skills).

I'm sure you already know that, but the point does need to be made explicitly.

There also someone who play pve.
Interrupts and degen are unuseful in pve!!
Think in mind that not all play pvp

Meridon · Jan 28, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

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Originally Posted by Redvex

There also someone who play pve.
Interrupts and degen are unuseful in pve!!
Think in mind that not all play pvp

I'd better reply to this before others do. Many of the people discussing in this topic will now probably go "That's not the point, these nerfs are meant for PvP, PvE will get their skill update later".

However, as long as all the skills in this update are not being split and nerfed purely for PvP, everything discussed here definitely affects PvE. And this is a bad thing, because we know PvE and PvP are recognized as two different things, even by ArenaNET, and thus one nerf shouldn't affect the other.

Test Crew, you have the option to split skills for PvE/PvP. Use it!

Artisan Archer · Jan 28, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Maybe we should make it easier on the pve'ers and make monsters use the pvp version of a skill. Now you can buff every pve skill and /faceroll to victory!